So. This guy name Nathan came on mormon.org last night. Here is the chat we had. He started out sounding super hostile, and by the end, we were having a pretty decent conversation. Don't feel like you have to read if you don't want to - just wanted to share this for people who were curious.
Please continue to hold for the next available missionary.
Me: Hello, my name is Leah.
Nathan: Hello Leah
Nathan: I am an atheist can you convince me your god is real?
Me: well, why do you not believe in them?
Me: and by them I mean God
Nathan: Because the scriptures all seem like fairy tales
Nathan: Talking snakes, noah's ark etc
Me: well, what would convince you that God does exist?
Nathan: You see the world how it is, you live in it everday, doesn't it defy your logic?
Me: no, it doesn't. So can you explain to me why it does to you?
Nathan: That if there was he wouldnt be like the one in any holy book
Nathan: He kills thousands, thinks there is nothing wrong with slavery, ask a man to sacrifice his son etc.
Me: why not?
Me: sorry I'm jsut curious
Nathan: He seems cruel to me
Me: ok. So what would the God that you could believe in be like?
Nathan: Even threatens people with thought crime
Nathan: He would be alot more merciful and would let us actually know his presence
Me: how?
Nathan: Not be all hidden from us
Nathan: And torture us with *faith*
Nathan: He should show himself
Nathan: To the entire world
Nathan: He hides
Me: so what do you think God's role would be, if he exists?
Nathan: To direct us, to care to make things better
Nathan: And yet he does nothing
Nathan: Why waste energy on something that is not even there.
Me: Well, if he always made things better, we would never learn that our actions have consequences
Nathan: To children that die?
Nathan: That he told people to slaughter
Nathan: In the old testiment
Me: well, i don't know how to explain the old testament - I don't quite understand it
Nathan: To wipe you other peoples?
Me: but I know what God's role is now
Nathan: He did many terrible things to people
Nathan: He kills them in the old testament
Nathan: like he did in the flood
Nathan: nice god
Nathan: Sorry iam being so negative
Nathan: But i think it all a big fairy tale and there is nothing else, just this one shot a life
Nathan: And that is it
Nathan: All the rest is wishful thinking
Nathan: WIth no proof
Nathan: Just text that men wrote and *feelings*
Nathan: big deal feelings can change, you know that
Nathan: And he sends *jesus* to die for our sins, where is our own responsibility when we do wrong?
Me: well, as a logical person, can't you accept that some people logically come to a different conclusion than you?
Nathan: Yes i can, but it is illogical to belive in someting without proof
Nathan: Like a god
Me: well, there are a lot of things that we extrapolate from evidence already shown - that's how experiments are devised
Nathan: Yes with science, tested and provable methods there is not proof with just faith
Nathan: Just feelings
Nathan: Which are subjective
Me: well there are lots of different kinds of proof - like emotional states, cannot be proven
Me: but they exist - that is obvious
Nathan: exactly i have had feelings before about god
Nathan: but thats all that they are
Nathan: and they change
Me: so you think that people should live their lives according to logic only? Never listening to feelings or gut instinct?
Nathan: i have even had a hallucination before
Nathan: yes gut instincts and feelings are a guide but you have to put logic and reason in there upmost
Nathan: because you could be wrong
Me: well, what about marrying someone? feelings usually take precedent there. I mean, there is pop culture galore to show how much we as a culture value the idea of romantic love
Nathan: true
Nathan: but you look at that person and their actions as proof as them being a good person
Nathan: you could be easily deciieved by going just by feeligs
Nathan: feelings
Me: well so we can listen to what prophets teach abotu God, and learn about his character for ourselves
Me: same idea - learn who he is
Me: that's how you trust him
Nathan: when i think of the god of the bible i see an angry god
Nathan: one who kills and destroys
Me: well, what about the God that christ describles?
Nathan: than he sends jesus than he threatens us with hell
Nathan: if ewe don't belive in him
Nathan: we
Me: but what about the way that Chirst describes him?
Nathan: like come on an eternity of torture and torment, just because we dont believe in somthing?
Me: and have you ever considered how much he has provided - he has told us exactly how to avoid that fate
Nathan: ya with a threat
Nathan: is coersion
Me: I don't see it that way. We have the option. Its like a parent outlining what happens if you break the rules of the house
Nathan: seriously it is not fair
Me: there are always consequences for our actions
Nathan: so there is harm in thinking for yourself?
Nathan: thats the threat?
Me: no, the idea is this;
Nathan: that idea to think for yourself?
Nathan: and not how others say you should think?
Me: he has provided the way. Also, he has allowed us to choose. If we choose to obey, then we are rewarded. If not, then we can't really blame him, because we knew what the consequences were and we chose it anyway
Nathan: Ya but what is there to base all of this on some book written by men in the bronze age?
Nathan: first century
Me: well. that is why God has called prophets today to guide us
Nathan: dont you think we are smarter now?
Nathan: WHy cant you guide yourself?
Nathan: and make your won decisions like an adult?
Me: I can. But I don't mind someone smarter than me helping me out
Nathan: own
Nathan: Yes but there is nothing wrong with questioning auothority
Nathan: especially in the case of someone that is always watching you, keeping tabs on your thought
Nathan: dont you find that restricting?
Nathan: you can be convicted of thought crime?
Me: well, we are judged according to everything - even our thoughts and desires. For some p[eople that can work in their favor. I don't see it as restricting - in the same way I dont' see it as restricting when a parent tells their child that they can't touch the burner on the stovetop. it's for our protections
Nathan: i understand that, but just like when a parent dies
Nathan: you are left to live your own life
Nathan: make your own decisions
Nathan: not so with god
Me: yes. And hence some of the suffering of the world is explained
Me: people make bad decisions, and then they have to suffer the consequences
Me: just like when we grow up and have to make our own decisions
Nathan: yes and take their own responsibility not cast it off on someone else like jesus
Me: well we do have a responsibility.
Nathan: I was not born in sin or dirty etc
Me: I don';t belive you were
Nathan: I am a human being
Nathan: I dont need to be saved from anything
Nathan: I am how i am
Nathan: who
Nathan: I ddint ask to be born
Nathan: and nothing has authority over me
Nathan: hey thanx for at least listening
Nathan: i appreciate it
Me: no problem
Nathan: I know i am coming on pretty strongly
Nathan: I dont mean to offend you
Nathan: in any way
Me: Yes, but you're not hostile or mean to me. So thank you for that
Nathan: np your a decent person
Nathan: I just dont belive much anymore
Nathan: I used to be a chritian big time
Me: what changed?
Nathan: christian
Nathan: I was just tired of the guilt
Nathan: And not feeling worthy enough, not trying hard enough to be good all the time
Me: well, what made you feel that way?
Nathan: Just everything, the rules, the feelings of inadequecy
Nathan: etc
Nathan: The feeling of constant surveilance
Nathan: him judging your thoughts
Me: well, what makes you think he is looking fo rhte bad?
Nathan: because the things i want to do are *bad* to him
Nathan: and the threat of hell
Nathan: Its all just to much anymore
Nathan: i dont want a reward, i dont care if i go to hell i just want to be myself
Nathan: and i except the consequences for that decisons
Nathan: i am not affraid anymore
Nathan: of the threat
Nathan: or of what any one else may think
Nathan: it is true freedom
Me: well, I can see how that would be hard
Me: I don't think he is trying to make you feel pressure. he wants you to be yourself. That is what I believe.
Nathan: with responsibility
Nathan: well he wouldnt agree with what i want and how i want to live it would be deeemed sinful
Me: well, what do you want?
Nathan: i want to live a non monogamous life, be with a partner that feel the same
Nathan: but in the bible that is wrong
Nathan: one man one women
Me: well, why do you want that?
Nathan: becasue i am attracted to other people at times, and i dont want to feel that i am someone property
Nathan: and i cant ever express affactions to anyone else but my wife
Nathan: affections
Me: well, do you understand why God wants us to live monogamously?
Nathan: No i dont it doesnt seem natural to me
Nathan: So i cant live like that i will be miserable
Me: so are you saying right and wrong should be determined by our desires and affections?
Nathan: and just be living under a totalitarian dictator out of fear
Nathan: fear of hell
Nathan: no its by ethics
Nathan: as long as your not deceiving anyone
Me: so as long as what you are doing doesn't hurt anyone else, it shoudl be ok?
Nathan: yes
Nathan: exactly
Me: so what about people who mutilate themselves? Or take drugs?
Me: no one should intervene?
Nathan: they are in pain
Nathan: you should try and help but they are ultimately responsible for themselves
Me: ok. I can respect that view.
Nathan: the have to decide when and if they stop
Nathan: they
Nathan: have to hit their low and decide to change
Me: And that is the way that God deals with us. Just like there are thigns that cause us to have spiritual damage and pain, and God warns us of those. We are free to do those things, but in that case we are responsible for ourselves - and we need to accept the conssequences that come from those actions
Nathan: see not beliveing in god free's you to think for yourself
Nathan: yes i do accept the responsibility
Nathan: and not cast it on jesus to forgive me
Nathan: its my doing
Me: if you choose not to believe in christ, you are responsibile for your sins
Nathan: yes
Nathan: and i accept that
Me: that is the point. If you believe, he can cover the things that you can never repair. But if you don't beleive, you have to suffer for your own sins. That's what hell is
Nathan: i am not affraid of hell though
Nathan: it is a threat
Nathan: there is no love in a threat
Nathan: especially if it is for an eternity
Nathan: like seriously that is a long time
Nathan: and you know yourself as time goes by how you can change your imind about things
Nathan: mind
Nathan: you dont think now at your age like you do when you were younger
Me: that is true. And my relationship with God is different now than it was when I was younger
Nathan: ya
Nathan: I am just saying like... why not live just by what you can actually see, real reality...
Nathan: not wishful thinking and by what others say you should believe
Me: well, because then no one would have ever bothered to look at the structure of an atom. Or learn the intricacies of life, or matter
Nathan: yes science i love it its, real and proven
Nathan: reality
Me: yes. But if no one wondered abotu what was bigger or smaller than us, or how things work, we never would have known that those things exist
Me: do you see my point?
Nathan: i do yes
Nathan: and thats called progress
Me: exactly.
Nathan: to me god is going backwards, the bible doesnt change or evolve
Me: that is true. But our understanding of God does
Nathan: its past text
Nathan: and old and outdated
Me: the more we learn,. the more we know abotu his character
Me: but that doesn't mean God is. God is alive. he love us.
Nathan: and his character is like human, he is jelous, vengeful he kills ets
Nathan: etc
Nathan: i dont view god as a god guy, he lets people starve,children and sits back and just watches it all
Nathan: good guy
Me: well, if this were the only life we had, that would be cruel. but we continue to live after this life
Nathan: ya but what if you were born in say Sierra or Iran you may be muslim or if born in india you may be hindu
Me: that is true. But I wasn't . So I can't really speculate on what kind of person I would be
Nathan: its all relative to our culture and where we were born as to what we belive
Me: the truth is that I know that it seems like a lot of religious people are following blindly, or affected by culture
Nathan: and to think if you were of another faith you could go to hell
Me: but I don't feel that way. I have lived abroad,I have friends of many different denominatiosn and religions
Nathan: just becasue you were not on the right team
Me: and I don't feel like I am just going along with what my parents told me
Nathan: that is not fair
Me: I feel like I am following the truth
Nathan: or moral of a god to do that
Me: haha we weren't really listening to each other were we?
Me: here I'll read yours you read mine
Nathan: yeah but feelings are not always true
Me: deal?
Nathan: deal
Nathan: you are so nice, sincerely
Me: haha thanks :)
Nathan: and patient
Me: ok. do you want to talk about my points or yours first?
Nathan: ok you go i will listen
Nathan: I do respect you
Nathan: these are huge issues
Me: Ok. Can i actually talk about our belief about the afterlife for two seconds? I swear it's relevant
Me: So basically, one of the things that really appeals to my logical side is this: If God was a loving, kind father, why would he damn people just for not believing in them. It doesn't make sense - those two contradict each other
Me: it's ESPECIALLY not fair if those people he is damning never even got the chance to hear abotu him or have the option to learn about him - like people in countries where religious proselyting is illegal,etc.
Me: are you with me so far nathan?
Nathan: exactly
Me: ok. So let me tell you something that helped clear that up for me
Nathan: yes i just stepped out for a second there
Me: sorry I just didn't know if you were still there. It made me sad - you're really intelligent and i enjoy talking to you
Nathan: ty i enjoy talking to you too
Me: anyway -
Me: so basically we believe that after this life, and before judgement, everyone will have the chance to listen to and accept or reject the teachings of Christ
Me: that the people who never got the chance will get the chance
Me: and one of our main beliefs is that we believe that "Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world. "
Me: that is a scripture
Me: so basically if they would have accepted it in this life, they will accept it then
Me: so really, he's giving everyone the same chance
Me: and we also believe that only the most vile of sinners go to an eternal hell - a place of suffering
Me: people who don't beleive in god, but are good people will ahve to suffer for a time for their own sins. like we talked abotu before, but after that they will go to a place where they will be happy
Me: not living with God, because if you didn't believe in God why would you want to live with them
Me: but basically very few are truly damned
Me: k
Me: does that make sense?
Nathan: like seriously take any good person that is just confused by it all, talking snakes, miracles by jesus, walking on water....all things that in the real world we know are not possible by the laws of physics are we are all supposed to take the bibles word for it,we never seen those things we were not there, its just not fair, and than the threat of hell looms over us if we dont belive these unreal claims of truth?
Nathan: i know where you are cominf from
Nathan: i used to be a christain
